tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post115075077945856387..comments2023-05-29T07:56:11.318-05:00Comments on Truth or Consequences: Looking Back at Greensboro/ Looking Ahead to the FutureUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-86467051543300728782010-12-01T18:02:43.579-06:002010-12-01T18:02:43.579-06:00People are dying to know the love of Jesus and we ...People are dying to know the love of Jesus and we bicker and fight over issues that are so secondary.<br /><br />As important as this issue may be in a person's conscience, there are far more important things to look at like the fact that 80% of our high school graduates are leaving the church. Every county in the U.S. has fewer people attending church today than only 10 years ago. Europe was 70% Christian 100 yrs ago and today only one century later less than 1% claim to be Christian.<br /><br />Why is America following the same landslide pattern that Europe has over the past century? Because the church wants to define more of what it's against rather than what it's for. We must become known by our love for people rather than our staunch rules that we feel so strongly about.<br /><br />Our responsibility is to love people not to change them. God changes a person. I'm a former drug addict who met Jesus and now 25 yrs later am pastoring a church that is growing and many people who hate church have come and experienced the life changing power of God. <br /><br />God help us all to devote ourselves to the things that are truly your priority - for God so loved the world...Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05724037721989900166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-85047414705914051662008-04-15T12:32:00.000-05:002008-04-15T12:32:00.000-05:00Regarding abstinence: I believe Dr. Akin takes wha...Regarding abstinence: I believe Dr. Akin takes what is known as a "totality of the circumstances" approach to evaluating the issue, and he evaluates the problem of alcohol in terms of national circumstances. He states the law of scripture (the verses that he cites), applies the law to his facts (in this case the national circumstances), and comes to what is a logical and correct conclusion based upon the law as applied to the facts. <BR/><BR/>There is an issue embedded in the "totality of the circumstances" approach that presents difficulty: What is the proper scope of the "circumstances" under consideration? In terms of national considerations, I have already agreed that Dr. Akin hits the nail on the head. We should not contribute to corporate machines that produce in mass quantities diabolical substances that lead to death and sloth in our country. <BR/>When the circumstances are narrowed however, the conclusions are not as clear. Jesus made and drank wine in a particular set of social and relational circumstances, and he of course made perfect decisions in that context. However I do not think Jesus would have drank a drop at a party where alcohol was the catalyst, the "social lubricant", for debauchery and death - as is so often the case in our society. I do not think Jesus would have made wine for the man who drinks his family into a state of poverty and terror of abuse. Regarding the corporate machine: I don't think he would have drank a Bud Light - the lubricant of many a frat house debauch. In reality I think it would be very difficult to find a one-to-one ratio in terms of Jesus' alcohol consumption (wherein he made perfect choices) compared with a modern person's decision to consume alcohol.<BR/><BR/>I imagine Dr. Akin also has evaluated the abstinence issue in terms of personal circumstances - and has generally found that alcohol consumption, in personal situations, and in its modern context does not measure up to the Biblical standard of love for one's brother.<BR/><BR/>So one should ask oneself, "Does the totality of the present circumstances, considering the implications on all levels, allow me to drink this beverage in accordance with the clear Biblical law of love?" Unless I am having a pint with C.S. Lewis, and the pint is his local pub's brew - then I feel like I will rarely satisfy my ethical inquiry, particularly in this country and at this point in history.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03144660292789861134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-61307960705912621152007-08-02T12:14:00.000-05:002007-08-02T12:14:00.000-05:00J.Gray hits it on the head when he says that we mi...J.Gray hits it on the head when he says that we miss the point too often.<BR/><BR/>IMO, the issue isn't whether or not alcohol is inherently a sinful agent. Scripture is clear that in and of itself, there is nothing wrong with it, but when it's consumed in excess, it's wrong.<BR/><BR/>I believe it's an issue of personal holiness. I'm assuming those who post on this board are mature believers who are knowledgable about the Bible. If there's a debate among us about the propriety of alcohol in the life of a believer, imagine the confusion that unbelievers have on the issue. When they see a believer drinking alcohol. When they hear legalists say that alcohol is a sin. When they get mixed messages from the Christian community, some saying they have freedom to drink alcohol and others saying that it's of the devil. Sure, we can drink an alcoholic beverage, but why do it? Because I can? Because Scripture doesn't prohibit it? Jesus created and drank wine, but was it as issue then like it is now? I'm a full proponent of the "stumbling block" rationale for abstaining. Taking one drink wouldn't do anything to inhibit my personal walk with Christ, but what will it do to someone else? There's definitely the potential for creating a stumbling block, so despite my freedom, I choose not to - for no other reason than to keep a brother/sister from stumbling or from keeping an observing unbeliever from coming to Christ.<BR/><BR/>Bottom line for me - there's such a stigma surrounding alcohol and religion, even among believers like ourselves, why should I be a party to it?<BR/><BR/>BTW, I state my opinion as simply that, and as a stance I've chosen to adopt. I'm not trying to foist this position on anyone.TJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16694974760050720305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150925647365755152006-06-21T16:34:00.000-05:002006-06-21T16:34:00.000-05:00interesting alex about Piperinteresting alex about PiperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150903720942334472006-06-21T10:28:00.000-05:002006-06-21T10:28:00.000-05:00I too think very highly of Dr. Akin and am proud t...I too think very highly of Dr. Akin and am proud to know him, even when we disagree. <BR/><BR/>A minor point. Dr Akin provides a long list of influential pastors who promote abstinence regarding the issue of alcohol. In that list he includes John Piper, who is, in fact, a tee-totaler. But he fails to mention the interesting fact that, in the early years of his ministry at Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis, that Piper went to great lengths to remove a bylaw from the church covenant that made such abstinence from alcohol a requirement of membership.Alex Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10808815666069966200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150893136555195592006-06-21T07:32:00.000-05:002006-06-21T07:32:00.000-05:00Gray-Good point alot of sins seem to get overlooke...Gray-<BR/>Good point alot of sins seem to get overlooked at there and that should not be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150858482952449212006-06-20T21:54:00.000-05:002006-06-20T21:54:00.000-05:00The alcohol thing, again, was pointless...we have ...The alcohol thing, again, was pointless...we have passed almost 60 resolutions on alcohol. We get it...the SBC is against drinking alcohol.<BR/>But do we make something that is not a sin (as admitted by Akin) a litmus test for serving as a trustee. Would we really disallow Paul or even Jesus from being a trustee because they consumed alcohol??<BR/><BR/>How about we pass a resolution on pride (which we know is a sin).<BR/>Many are the SBC leaders I have met who are proud men. Why not speak against that sin which is the biggest threat to ministers?<BR/><BR/>Why not speak against greed? As many pastors have their fancy suits and expensive cars...not to mention the agency heads making over $300K a year.<BR/><BR/>I just find it odd which sins get ignored and which sins get 60 resolutions.<BR/><BR/>We miss the point too often.J. Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737645823273965654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150813626351984262006-06-20T09:27:00.000-05:002006-06-20T09:27:00.000-05:00Brothers and Sisters know that this article by Dr....Brothers and Sisters know that this article by Dr. Akin are his thoughts about this year's SBC. It is public knowledge and that is why I am sharing it with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150812449744789272006-06-20T09:07:00.000-05:002006-06-20T09:07:00.000-05:00For an in-depth article written by Dr. Akin on his...For an in-depth article written by Dr. Akin on his thoughts on Calvinism you can go here.<BR/><BR/>http://www.sebts.edu/president/resources/viewFile.cfm?DocumentID=1038Justicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14650206185345299569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150811993712586042006-06-20T08:59:00.000-05:002006-06-20T08:59:00.000-05:00John, I see your point regarding alcohol. It is to...John, I see your point regarding alcohol. It is to bad that Southern Baptists are spending so much time in this area when they could be spending time in other places; better laws could be passed I do believe.<BR/><BR/>I do think that the Southern Baptist Convention needs to have some stance on its position with alcohol; but it needs to be careful not to override what the Bible says. I wonder if this has some similaritis with having an unregenerate membership in the SB church.<BR/><BR/>I think you would agree that this is a tough area for the SBC or at least it should be; cause it is a pretty gray area in Scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150811423925986422006-06-20T08:50:00.000-05:002006-06-20T08:50:00.000-05:00While I do not consume alcohol I think there are m...While I do not consume alcohol I think there are more edifying things that could have been proposed and worked on than that issue in particular. <BR/><BR/>So many of these issues they deal with do nothing for the greater mission we have been given. And, if you are doing anything they don't like - like blogging they say things like "how many people could you have reached for Jesus if you werent blogging" (I believe Dr. Welch said that). <BR/><BR/>Well I say - how many people could of been reached had there not been a conference for us to blog about?<BR/><BR/>Just musings and ramblings.<BR/><BR/>NickJusticehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14650206185345299569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150811333275895292006-06-20T08:48:00.000-05:002006-06-20T08:48:00.000-05:00I think Dr.Akin misses the point on several of the...I think Dr.Akin misses the point on several of the issues he discusses, but I think people have already addressed several of those. But one he mentioned, and one that several people have said in different situations, is the issue of "forgetting our heroes". I don't know what it is that makes people think that our generation has forgot anything. We are the product, in some degree, of all of those men he mentioned. Our generation has reaped the benefit of their hard work in regaining lost ground in the SBC and their great work to focus on the inerrancy of Scripture. I think all of us are eternally grateful for those actions. But that does not mean that the actions of men are above discussion and criticism. Does Akin really want us to not speak about any shortcomings we see? I understand that any disagreement must be done in a manor worthy of Christian compassion...but where have those men been attacked or blasted? Did I miss that?<BR/>I have no problems stating my disagreement with anyone that says they are submitted to the authority of Scripture and then acts in a way contrary to that. Sadly, the generation in power now is a pragmatic generation. They say they affirm the authority of scripture...but it doesn't play itself in their soteriology or (especially) in their ecclesiology. Are we not to discuss that? Are we to keep our mouths shut because of the good they've done? (Is Dr. Akin consistent in this practice? Does he criticize weaknesses in theologians of the past or does he only speak of their good aspects?)<BR/>I have no problem with pointing out areas of hypocrisy and error...even in men who are heroes of the SBC. No one is above that. That is a lesson we learned from those men because of the inerrancy and authority of Scripture.J. Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737645823273965654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150810213916174442006-06-20T08:30:00.000-05:002006-06-20T08:30:00.000-05:00I appreciate his comments on Calvinism. However, h...I appreciate his comments on Calvinism. However, his comments on alcohol do nothing to blunt the conclusion that there is no Biblical basis to demand total abstinence from alcohol. The Lord Jesus drank and made alcohol. Period. Unless we think we're more godly than the Lord Jesus is, we need to stop making a law over this.<BR/><BR/>Southern Baptists need to think soberly (!) over the fact that this past convention sent the signal that to be a Southern Baptist in good standing one does not need to attend church, only keep away from alcohol! That's quite literally "conservatism", with no attachment to the Bible.yeoberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09709454036342141697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150804006912660332006-06-20T06:46:00.000-05:002006-06-20T06:46:00.000-05:00Amen, and thanks for your comments men. This was ...Amen, and thanks for your comments men. This was simply an article that was sent to me from Dr. Akin's office and his take on the annual SBC meeting this year. Perhaps there are many things that we could disagree with him on and about in the article, for example on his stance with the CP, Calvinism or other issues he did not address in the article. Again, these are his opinions and his alone on how he viewed the meeting in Greensboro. I do, however think that Dr. Danny Akin is a great man of God and I am glad to know him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150781275504929702006-06-20T00:27:00.000-05:002006-06-20T00:27:00.000-05:00It is patently obvious that many thousands of peop...It is patently obvious that many thousands of people die each year in America because of problems that result from OBESITY.Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150778580766717692006-06-19T23:43:00.000-05:002006-06-19T23:43:00.000-05:00Dear Brother Ryan,Is this a lie?"I believe his chu...Dear Brother Ryan,<BR/><BR/>Is this a lie?<BR/><BR/>"I believe his church was misrepresented in terms of its faithful support of the C.P."<BR/><BR/>Have you seen the chart posted by Wes Kenney, to which Dr. Akin is referring? There is no misrepresentation there, just a chart showing Dr. Floyd's church's CP numbers. Over the past 20 years Dr. Floyd's church has consistently, gradually reduced CP% giving from over 9% to .27% in 2005. Does Dr. Akin consider that to be "faithful support of the CP"?<BR/><BR/>I understand that Dr. Floyd's church has spent enormous amounts of money and effort in missions, and has given much money to the SBC through various channels. But Dr. Akin specifically says, "CP," which means sending your SBC support through the state convention in the traditional way.<BR/><BR/>I don't know Dr. Akin, and have no gripe with the positions he has taken in these statements, although I do not agree completely at every point. I just want to know if this was a lie.<BR/><BR/>Love in Christ,<BR/><BR/>JeffJeff Richard Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733241874625816333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150772266619197002006-06-19T21:57:00.000-05:002006-06-19T21:57:00.000-05:00I hear what you are saying my friend. Dr. Akin is...I hear what you are saying my friend. Dr. Akin is a good and godly man. As far as the alcohol issue, interesting; I would have to agree that many in the SBC churches are unregenerate and have never truly asked God to forgive them of their sins and been born-again. We will pray and hope that he will bring up to Page that he is bothered by Ascol's resolution not being dealt with. Two influential SB presidents that come to my mind that can do great things in the convention are Al Mohler and Danny Akin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23442592.post-1150768195437474752006-06-19T20:49:00.000-05:002006-06-19T20:49:00.000-05:00I appreciate his take on the abstinence issue. I ...I appreciate his take on the abstinence issue. I would argue exactly the same way but not in the form of a resolution. It is an important issue but perhaps alcohol is an issue in the SBC because of unregenerate church membership. Thus, as Timmy Brister has commented elsewhere, we simply put a little band-aid over a bigger issue.<BR/> <BR/>I am glad that Brother Akin is bothered by Ascol's resolution not being debated. It would be nice to hear him begin to champion this along with President Page.broadstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06105569798346759722noreply@blogger.com