Saturday, March 11, 2006

The "god" of Arminianism is Not Worshippable

This is an awesome must read article, it is an excellent history lesson and background of Arminianism. Charles Spurgeon had some very strong words for those that followed this vile doctrine, he said "Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they the orthodox." (Gotta love Spurgeon).

Click below.
The “god” of Arminianism is Not Worshippable
A simple overview of what Arminius taught verses what the Bible teaches.

By, Dr. C. Matthew McMahon


churchdog said...

If Calvinists are so confident in their position why aren't they willing to state emphatically that Arminians are heretical and outside the church? If, as Calvinist' propose, Arminians have it wrong when it comes to salvation, it really shouldn't matter where else they may be right. They're not Christian!

However, I have yet to find even one Calvinist who is willing to separate from their supposed "brothers in Christ" because they reside in the Arminian camp.

It sure seems like hypocrisy when the Calvinist will name the JW's or Mormons as non-Christian due to their deviation from central Christian doctrines. But they aren't willing hold to the same standard when it comes to Arminians.

Sometimes it seems like the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate generates a lot more heat than it does light.

Anonymous said...

From "The "god" of Arminianism is Not Worshippable":

"It may be that you are an Arminian…Satan has used his false teacher to dupe you, along with much of the church today. Arminianism is darkness, wickedness, evil, and heresy of the worst kind - and you have bought into it. Even scarier, God has allowed you to believe a lie (2 Chronicles 18:21). Not only are you believing a lie, God has sent it to you that you may be blinded and condemned in unrighteousness!

"The Bible condemns Arminius’ teaching as heretical. The Bible makes it exceedingly clear that different Gospels, counterfeit Gospels, are no Gospels at all and deserve condemnation, not admiration." (Emphasis added)

At least the author had the integrity to call Arminians what most 5-pointers believe they are;

Chris Hinton said...

Church Dog, the question I would like you to answer is; do you think there is a line which someone can cross in which you would have to say that they are not saved?

Hopefully you do understand that there is a line.

Any doctrine or theology can be stretched to a point that it leaves Orthodox Christianity, and yes, that includes the doctrines of grace. If you would like to see a good example of this, read about Augustine and Pelagius. While you are studying, understand that is where your argument ends. Pelagius had to deny that man is born with a sin nature. He said that man was born morally neutral and that it was up to him whether he got saved. He basically painted a picture of God up in heaven looking down on mankind just hoping they would turn out right. That means that Christ died to make salvation possible and I say that Christ died to make salvation CERTAIN! This means that God is in control. It also means that at some point the Arminian view turns into heresy. My view on where that line is makes no difference, God’s view is the only one that matters.

Jason E. Robertson said...

Most Arminians today are not 5-point Arminians. Most believe in total depravity and perseverance of the saints (which they would call eternal security). They would not be heretics for they have not crossed that "line" of classical Arminianism. That is why Calvinist do not call most Arminians heretics. The way that Arminians skirt heretical denials of the sovereignty of God and the "by grace alone" issues is through their teaching of universal prevenient grace which I will be blogging on soon at Fide-O.

Church Dog said...

If, as Jason says, "Most believe in total depravity and perseverance of the saints (which they would call eternal security). They would not be heretics for they have not crossed that "line" of classical Arminianism", then why is there so much venom being shot their way? If they are "in the Church" why not treat them as such?

Instead, they're treated with contempt or in many cases something worse. For example: The "god" of Arminianism is Not Worshippable.

Either they are in the Church or they're not. If they're "in" and we disagree with them on certain points of doctrine, then we need to learn to "agree to disagree AGREEABLY" as Walter Martin used to say. Otherwise we should just keep our mouths shut.

Justice said...

When it comes to defending truth, we are not aloud to keep our mouths shut. Anybody spreading a false gospel needs to be confronted and told the truth -- of course we need to do this in a loving way and I personally havent shot any venom lately. I have just about always seen that taking somebody through the whole of scripture on this subject is generally all that needs to be done. The scripture defends itself. When they are still not willing to accept scripture then typically there is another reason that has nothing to do with God or the bible.

As a side note, if you believe that the "god" of Arminianism is worshippable - then you are putting an idol and a false "god" before God. The "god" of Arminianism written about in that article is heresy. So maybe that was just a bad example on your part.

Quote from the article:
"What does Arminianism teach? Is the “god” of Arminianism the God of the Bible? No. Arminius did not plagiarize the bible; instead, he fabricated a brand new deity, or idol, for men to worship. The “god” of Arminianism is not the God of the Bible."

James 1:6

Church Dog said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Church Dog said...

Do the Arminians who aren't heretical, which according to jason is the majority of them, the favor of differentiating them from their heretical ancestors.

Regarding your side note; do you really believe that Arminianism, as it is defined today by the majority of its adherents, is heresy? If so I look forward to seeing you proudly affix the heretic label to any Arminians who weigh in on this debate in the future.

Also, my overall point is that their is very little, if any, brotherly love shown to our Arminian brothers when this topic is discussed. As I mentioned before, this debate seems to generate a whole lot more heat than it does light. At least in the blog world.

Jason E. Robertson said...

Tim, the article that this post is about deals with classical Arminianism and you are not. You are making broad claims that Calvinist have a no "love" for Arminians today, but those of whom you are defending are not classical Arminians.

Calvinist have a greater love for the world than Arminians do in that Calvinist have a better understanding of the nature of sin and nature of the atonement.

Calvinist have more love for their enemies than their enemies have for Calvinist because Calvinist understand unconditional love.

Classical Arminians preach a false gospel. A FALSE GOSPEL. See how much contempt "or worse" that Paul had for guys like this in the Book of Galatians. Notice how he even got in the face of Peter who had started preaching a works-salvation. Note the contempt John had for the "works-salvation" crowd of his day. Listen to Jesus call them vipers and snakes. Then judge Calvinist.

Calvinist are hated...Hated... by many Christian brothers. I haven't met a Calvinist, even a hyper Calvinist, who hates semi-Arminians like Lutherans, Methodist, or most Baptist. It was the Pelagius Catholics that burned Calvinist at the stake, drowned their wives and children, and imprisoned thousands of our brothers and sisters.

Calvinist continue to bring up the Bible, which does cause "heated" discussions. But at least Calvinist keep bringing up the Bible and not gimmicks and new pragmatic humanistic methods of increasing membership numbers.

Calvinist do not run around calling people heretics, like you have asked us to do, unless they are heretics. "Heretic" is a harsh word that means something specific and should not just be thrown around. JW's and Mormons are heretical. The average Christian who does not know theology but just loves Jesus may be in error on many theological points but he is neither lost nor heretical.

Tim, I ask you to please start coming on Thursday nights to MVC and you will understand these issues once and for all.

Chris Hinton said...

Church Dog,

First, let’s look at this in context of this particular article. The author’s main point is that salvation is not by works (classical Arminianism). I would assume that you believe that salvation is a gift of God and not something that you can earn. So then we can see that the author’s definition of Arminianism includes one who would believe on some level that salvation can be attained through works (classical Arminianism). In this case, and I think that you would agree with me, the person who has this belief, referred to as an Arminian, is not in the realm of orthodox Christianity.

Second you ask “Do the Arminians who aren't heretical, which according to Jason is the majority of them, the favor of differentiating them from their heretical ancestors.” Most of this argument really takes place under the Calvinist name. What I mean by that is that people who say they are Arminian are people who are usually five point Arminian or classical Arminians and they are heretical. Other people usually identify with how many of the points of Calvinism that they agree with. The view that I hear most, for example, is “I’m a 4 point Calvinist” although you can also be 1, 2, 3 or 5 point. Beyond this the lines for a lot of people have been blurred and they don’t fully understand what they are claiming to believe. With that said you can see that it would be very hard to say that anyone is heretical or not just by the label that they give themselves. It seems that it is never quite that simple. However most people will make this distinction on their own because they are referring to themselves as Calvinists and identifying how many points they do believe. I don’t think that I have ever heard anyone say that they were a “so many” point Arminian.

And finally, you make mention of brotherly love in reference to this doctrine. Most of the Calvinists that I know were at one time Arminian in their view and are very loving of someone with that view. We are here to hold up one another and come alongside each other in love. I agree that there is a lot of mud slinging going on. But that is a discussion for another day. It has more to do with pride issues rather than this doctrine.

Scott Hill said...

Church Dog I read very carefully and you have helped me. You arguments help me see error in the way I handle some things concerning this issue. I now will begin saying Arminians are heretics. Thanks for helping take the final step in that direction.